A few days ago I tweeted this short video on Youtube, in which a Japanese girl recites The Wizard of Oz in English. Watch and be amazed.
Great, huh? Did you understand anything? Fair enough, the quality of the audio isn’t very good, but you would still be able to understand a native speaker of English reciting the same text.
The ‘great’ thing is that this clip was posted by one of her teachers, so she’s taking classes. English language classes!
One of the characteristics of language classes is teachers trying to get their students to talk from day one. If you hear what the result could be, listening to that Japanese girl, would you still want to take language classes and/or start speaking from day one?
Now, I’m not saying that every early speaker is doomed. There are plenty of learners who started speaking from day one and now have an acceptable accent. Unfortunately they don’t form the majority of learners.
Right after I tweeted the clip, I got a reply from Benny the Irish Polyglot (@irishpolyglot), saying:
Personally I don’t know any person who chose to listen first and never got to speaking, so I can’t say there are more examples. On the other hand I do know enough early speakers who have a messed up accent, not to mention bad grammar, etc.
Don’t wait until you’re ready, just use a fixed number of hours of input
I agree with Benny that waiting until you’re ready could possibly lead to nothing. That’s why many learners and scientists have come up with something to prevent that: a fixed number.
According to the ALG method (Automatic Language Growth), one should take in at least 800 hours of native speech before trying to talk. They’re not saying you should wait until you’re ready, just that you should wait for the first 800 hours to pass by.
Why a fixed number? Because people grow into habits easily. If you’ve only been listening for hundreds of hours, it is indeed difficult to switch to something else, like speaking. That’s why the fixed number is so great, because this way you’ll force yourself to speak while you’re ready.
And 800 hours isn’t just some number they came up with. It’s based on research, proving that after 800 hours of comprehensible input one knows enough of the language to start speaking it and building his/her skills from there.
Why you should listen first
I’m starting to get the feeling that I’m repeating myself, but I’ll just go ahead and explain again why it’s important to listen first.
A person who listens first isn’t necessarily afraid to talk. I’m a very outgoing person, and I’m not afraid to make mistakes while speaking a foreign language. Many of my friends aren’t shy either, and love to speak foreign languages but simply choose to shut up first when tackling a new language.
Many shy learners are being encouraged to speak from day one, just to get rid of the fear of speaking. This is a bad mindset, as teachers concentrate on something that’s not even relevant, and just cause many learners to develop a bad pronunciation or accent.
When you listen first, as in the ALG method, you have a clear idea of what to sound like when you start speaking after the input period. Without this period you’re just guessing how you should sound, or relying on teachers who won’t correct every mistake you make. Or even worse: you’ll rely on your native language to guess the correct sounds, which will often lead to bad pronunciation.
But remember: even if you listen to 800 hours before starting to speak, your pronunciation won’t be perfect. But you at least know what does sound correct, even though you’re not able to produce every correct sound yourself yet.
This is where corrections kick in. When you ask a beginner to tell the different between a alveolar and a uvular R, he won’t be able to say which is which. You can let him hear both Rs, but he won’t be able to tell the difference between them. Now, this doesn’t count for every beginner, but at least for 95% of the beginners I’ve met.
Ask someone who never spoke Spanish but took in several hundreds of hours of Spanish input to tell the difference, and he will be able to tell the uvular R (the “French R”) isn’t correct in Spanish.
I give this example because many Dutch people stick to the uvular R when they’re learning Spanish, without noticing they’re pronouncing it all wrong. When I roll my R the right way, they simply say: “there’s no difference between the two sounds”. I blame not taking in enough Spanish and speaking from day one for their ignorance.
Are people who speak first doomed? And the people who listen first?
Neither are doomed. First of all: I don’t believe in hell, so according to me nobody can be doomed. Second of all: everyone can be fixed, at least in terms of learning languages.
I know many who once had a messed up accent, and undertook some major “operations” to finally get rid of that train wreck they once called an accent. Sometimes this included many hours of practicing, and even going to a speech therapist.
That’s exactly the reason why I urge people to listen first, like for some 800 hours. It has nothing do to with being shy or not, or never getting to speak your target language. It all has to do with the process babies go through.
Some like to dispute Krashen’s theories, but they simply work in real life. Getting input first, just like a baby does, works. It not only helps with your pronunciation and accent, but it also helps you get a feeling for the grammar of your target language.
The most fluent speakers of Spanish I ever met are the ones who took in massive amounts of input first. People who are outgoing and prefer to speak from day one hesitate a lot, make more mistakes and often don’t have a very good accent.
Again, this doesn’t count for every person out there, but when you take a look around the language-learner blogosphere, you’ll notice that the “input first” supporters generally do better than the “speak right away” supporters. This could be pure coincidence, but I’m not that optimistic.
What’s your take on the subject?
Of course, this is only my view, based on my own experiences in both the language-learner blogosphere and as a teacher. It’s possible that you have other experiences with language learners, or maybe you have had the same experiences as me.
Share your take on the subject in the comments section!
Use Seduction to Speak Spanish
Just listen – part 2
Just listen
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Of course Benny will be against you, it goes against his money making scam. Only a sucker would believe in his methods. But hey, as WC Fields always said: a sucker is born every minute.
I'm starting a FLUENT IN 2 SECONDS program where you grunt and point until the natives understand you. I can fluently communicate in seven different languages this way, and for $10.99 per month you can too!
Ooh… Sign me up!
Matt, if you offer it for $ 9.99 (it's Christmas!), I'll subscribe
)
What?!! 2 seconds!?! I cannot wait for 2 second you know! That's way to slow for me. Call me when you come up with something faster sir!
)
I disagree with Ramses because it's not been my experience and I'm arguing with him because this post is based on bullying a 14 year old girl who was brave enough to share her first experience speaking online.
I find the ignorance in random internet commenters to always be quite hilarious! I guess everyone that makes any money in any way shape or form is running a scam…
Think about your last winter in Thailand. How much were you REALLY able to speak? Only some phrasebook sentences after 3 months (watch your own video!). I wonder whether you still remember these phrases. Well, all that wasn't enough input! Benny, you are a great blogger and seller, but when it comes to language learning I think you are totally wrong. Steve Kaufmann, who speaks 10 languages well, shows that he is right and you are wrong.
Steve Kaufmann once wrote in a comment on Youtube "Soy de acuerdo", after many many many years of Spanish. Isn't ser vs estar the first thing everyone learns in Spanish? I'm sorry but I can't take him seriously.
My purpose in Thailand was to get by in the language and I achieved it. I wasn't aiming for fluency and never said I was. I was only in Thailand for 8 weeks (not 3 months??!), and the purpose of the trip was actually a holiday. If you would read the post associated with the video you'd see that I learned everything I needed to make that video in *one weekend*.
Please do your research before making bold false claims.
Estoy – Soy … is this so important? You pray in your blog that mistakes are OK. But that's not the question. You have a claim, and it's in the title of your blog: "FLUENT in 3 MONTHS" – But in fact, you never follow your own claim. In Thailand, in Hungary, you didn't reach fluency. That's a fact. Even in Berlin you didn't reach your goals. It's a pity!
You are an engineer, then you should know: Only what comes in, can come out.
First input (read, listen), then output (speak, write). That's the way it is.
Alex, please don't pollute this blog with the rude boy SK.
And BTW he SPEAKS NOT 10 languages well.
Thank you.
Is your statement "don't pollute this blog with the rude boy" the only thing you have to tell us here? Poor, very poor…
Steve Kaufmann speaks 10 languages – well or not well isn't a question, I think – well enough.
How many do you speak – one, two?
Actually not only are you wrong, but you have no idea what you’re talking about and just made a bunch of ignorant assertions based on information that is NOT ONLY false but also could have been correct had you bothered to take 5 minutes and actually do some research prior to shooting your mouth off. I see Benny addressed those fallacies below but, not surprisingly, you just ignored the fact that you got nailed and tried to twist around some nonsense about the title of his blog into you being correct–errm, no, he made it VERY clear precisely how long he was in Thailand, what his goal was (which he met, by the way, it wasn’t getting fluent let alone in 3 months), and what the circumstances were: YOU just didn’t bother to look into that before opening your mouth.
for some reason, those that advocate listening first also tend to say the descriptions of how sounds are pronounced are useless. what do you think? when you know where you sound off, how do you start fixing it?
I wouldn't say they're useless, but from my own experience I know that I never used them or didn't find them very useful. That doesn't mean those discriptions won't work for other people, because that's very well possible.
I noticed that after a considerable amount of input you just know what sounds correct and what doesn't. You don't need a description for that, because your ears will help you to figure things out.
What's my take on the subject?
My take is that it's pretty short-sighted to consider one single method as "THE" best. The most successful language speakers are the ones that exercise both input and output equally.
Agree. There's not ONE method, and people who succeed always combine output and input. After all: output is the goal. But the question is WHEN you're going to start producing, and I believe (backed with scientific proof) one should concentrate on input first.
"The most successful language speakers are the ones that exercise both input and output equally".
Do you have any proof or are you just making stuff up?
I guess I should have prefaced that with "in my experience".
Better?
Agreed, and that’s a point I was about to make in response to this thread and it’s also nice to see that Ramses agrees with you on this.
I don’t dispute the effectiveness of the listening-first approach, nor do I dispute the effectiveness of the speaking-first approach, I just think that some things work better for some people than others. In short, do whatever you want. I DO agree with Benny on the point that if you don’t do a LOT of speaking with native speakers, you don’t stand a chance in hell of ever being able to speak well in the language, of ever really being fluent, no matter how much input you get: YOU. MUST. SPEAK. Now, whether the best time to do that is immediately or 800 hours down the road is another thing, but you’re going to have to do it and you’re going to have to do a LOT of it before you’re going to be fluent.
Cheers,
Andrew
Ramses, I completely share your view on this, and I’m glad you’re bringing the topic up again. Based on my own experiences with a variety of languages, I can only confirm that early speaking never did any good for me in the long term, whereas shutting up and listening a lot did (and does). Having a solid base in comprehension makes everything else (pronouncing, speaking, reading, writing) so much more easy later on.
I personally don’t see an issue with waiting till you’re ready. After enough input, language begins to pop up in your head and you can start to use it naturally. The rant about never getting to speak is fighting a strawman.
This pattern, that early speakers suck in the long term, is also something I believe to observe in others, and, living in a city with 40% foreigners, I have plenty of examples. One has to be careful, though, with these kinds of observations, because they are often biased towards one’s own views.
I could barely understand the Japanese girl. I know she's just one student but I think it beautifully illustrates the danger of being forced to speak too early by a teacher. Going by that 800 hour standard, I'm having quite an extended shutting up period, but I'm enjoying it so much and why not? There's not much practical purpose for speaking Spanish here in London anyway. That said, I can speak if I have to and my accent is decent so it's not something I worry too much about.
Great post.
This input vs output debate is B.S. A language is a means of communication between human beings. When you lose sight of this, you start attempting to humiliate 14 year old girls who speak a language for the first time to desperately prove a point! It's shameful how far you are bringing this Ramses! Embedding the video is something that you can see from Youtube analytics so it's possible she could come across this and get scared from ever trying again. What you say on twitter about waking her up is a miserable way to help people progress. I'm really disappointed in how much you pushed this video, forgetting the human being on the other side of it for the sake of creating an example.
Who are you to decide that what she is saying isn't good enough? Natives decide that in context. As an English speaking native I think she is doing a great job for her first time. Learners are always more critical of the use of languages than natives are outside of academic contexts – i.e. the real world.
Perfectionists scrutinising Youtube videos is not how the real world works. In my experience only those from certain French cities, Americans and Brits are arrogant enough to be rude to someone trying to speak their language. Perhaps the Dutch are too, I don't know. But I have spoken languages with a similar level to her in my first days in Hungarian etc. and people have encouraged me to try to improve.
The only thing I can agree on is that this video is a good example of "output only", but in the real world there is no output only. People don't go on soliloquys of several minutes – they get FEEDBACK.
Sorry Ramses, but your input-only approach might sound lovely from the comfort of your computer screen but in the real world people need to use their languages. Input-only is fine if you want to pass an exam or are not interested in efficiency that faster active use provides.
1) Yes Benny, she is doing a "great job." I wonder what an early-output speaker doing badly for their first time would sound like…
2) Yes Benny, non-native English speakers are unable to recognize a butchered English accent and so should not point them out when their pitiful non-native brains think they detect one.
3) Yes Benny, all Americans, French, and Brits are "arrogant enough to be rude to someone trying to speak their language." Why just earlier today in San Diego an immigrant asked me for directions and I beat him unconscious with my mahogany cane.
4) Hey Benny, remember that one time you said only native speakers were allowed to judge accents and then called Americans, French, and Brits arrogant and rude? Good times. With any luck, a pure-bred Irish master race will fix the "opinions coming from non-native speakers problem" once and for all.
5) Yes Benny, we who disagree do so from the comfort of our computer screens and do not know much of this "real world" you speak of. Sounds lovely though.
6) Yes Benny, we (the input first crowd) are focused on passing exams and learning as inefficiently as possible. Even I, though not in school and learning ridiculously quickly, am no doubt focused on passing exams and learning inefficiently.
Just kidding! Seriously though, please respond with your credit card # so I can get you the info on my FLUENT IN 2 SECONDS program!
The fact that you promote this mocking post shows that you are part of the camp of those who are too impatient to help foreigners learning a language. If you talked to an immigrant in San Diego with pretty good English I'm sure you put up with it. Good for you(!) That's irrelevant to how you'd react to this girl.
I didn't say "all", but a huge amount compared to other countries (especially those that don't travel) are not patient with those learning the language in the states, the UK & parts of France. Sorry that you are sensitive about this. People in Latin and Asian cultures are infinitely more patient and helpful than who I listed, controversial as this may sound it's the reality.
I also didn't say "only natives were allowed to judge accents". You are exaggerating what I say to bring me to your own ludicrous level.
Matt, please read my site before spurting your propaganda. I don't have any "fluent in x" programs, it's the domain name. My book doesn't promise any fixes, it just describes how I can converse with people in early stages of learning a language from 8 years experience.
What a fascinating discussion this is – any other children want to chime in with immature remarks? I've learned to leave Steve Kaufmann's site alone when comments got out of hand there. Ramses, if you are cool with controversial posts (Steve loved them – he said I caused the biggest traffic spike in his site's history!) then I'll just not participate in future. I'm not interested in getting into more pissing competitions with people who don't use languages socially. If people have different goals with their language and appreciate reading and listening more, then so be it.
So, in syllogism form:
a) This central argument of this post concerns getting input before producing output
b) I agree with this practice
—————— THEREFORE————–
c) I am too impatient to help foreigners learning a language.
amirite?
1) No Benny, you didn't say "only natives were allowed to judge accents." You said "Who are you to decide that what she is saying isn't good enough? Natives decide that in context. As an English speaking native I think…" Please forgive my paraphrasing; I'd hate for people to start thinking that you were a conceited, loudmouthed profiteer with a bad product. As an English speaking native, I don't know how I'd sleep at night, even after doing hundreds of pushups!
2) Yes Benny, come to think of it a Japanese girl tried to read The Wizard of Oz to me recently and I, a student of languages, punched her in the solar plexus because I am arrogant and rude towards people with bad accents.
3) Yes Benny, because you said 'please' I will read your site before spurting my propaganda. In fact, it would be my pleasure as a "propaganda"-spouting, "arrogant," "rude," "ludicrous" "child" to give your site some traffic. Hell, I think I'll buy two copies of your book, in case I want seconds!
Super-seriously though, are you going to sign up for my FLUENT IN 2 SECONDS!!!!!1! program or what?
"Seriously", are you able to speak in non bullet/numbered points?
When you resort to petty insults, we know your argument is on thin ice
Great to see you admit that you don't ever give my site "traffic". Proves even more that you don't have the foggiest idea what the hell you're talking about with your totally irrelevant insults at me.
If I knew anything about you other than the fact that you are nice to one particular immigrant in San Diego, I'm sure I'd have plenty of material for insults, but I prefer to talk about the matter at hand since you are doing a fantastic job at digging your own hole!
Your ignorance is astounding, your arrogance and rudeness coupled with that really puts it over the top. You’re not worth addressing. The worst, most insulting thing you can do to someone, I’ve found, is ignore them. I should note that this is also the most hurtful thing you can do to internet trolls (I’m betting Benny will read this, so that’s also some advice).
Benny Lewis:
"The only thing I can agree on is that this video is a good example of "output only","
I don't think it is. The student is obviously getting some level of input also because she's reading from something and quite likely she's watched the film too. I see it as an example of output too early – and by that I mean before she's had enough time get used to the way English sounds – and it also appears to be output at the request of a teacher, when only the student really knows when she's ready. That's what the problem here seems to be, not "output" per se.
I admit that I don't know the background to this discussion, but taking it at face value I didn't read it as being something intended to humiliate or be rude about the student, and that certainly wasn't my intention in replying to it either. Also, I don't think the British over here are too hung up about people speaking perfect English (god knows we butcher the language enough ourselves) and I've never met anyone here who cares about it enough to pick on someone who's trying to learn. You might have a point about the French though, haha!
Hi Yvonita!
Yes, the teacher forcing her to speak is not ideal, and following this pattern is definitely not something I'd recommend. But in my experience speaking as soon as possible and as much as possible and accepting feedback works *really well* when you do it right. People immediately jumping on particular immigrants they know as bad examples are not citing the right bad examples. If someone ignores feedback or does not speak enough about various topics (no matter how early they do it), then they'll fail too of course.
About the British – all I can say is that I have met many many foreigners who have lived in the UK who tell me that despite their best efforts, locals would be very impatient with them when they spoke broken English. My comment is not a stab against Brits or Americans as I have many friends of each and find both cultures very friendly – just not so much in this particular context.
I had a similar experience in Paris because I was *not* part of an exchange program that arranged friends for me in advance. If the entire world was as impatient as Parisians then I would give more credibility to promoting a wait-a-while-first system like Ramses', but as I keep saying things simply don't work like that in Latin and Asian cultures. Even in Germany I was very patiently listened to as I stumbled a lot initially!
But there are ways around cultural issues. In retrospect I could go to Paris again and do it better, but understanding how to deal with the Parisian resistance would make all the difference, rather than simply saying "Oh well, nobody cares to hear my stumbles. I should wait a few years first!"
I know Ramses goal here isn't to be mean to that girl, and to be factual, but analysing something that is inherently social, while not showing respect to people is contradictory in my view.
It's not that I'm not showing respect. I'm all for being positive, but there's a line that separates positivity and honesty.
I’d rather be honest than positive just to be positive. Remember: I teach high school students, and I’m positive ALL THE TIME. But when someone really pronounces something wrong for the 10th time, and he or she had enough input, I’m still going to pick on that particular word or sound. Why? Because I want to bash them? I know I can be a dick at times, but I’m not that evil.
Positivity can only bring you so far, but at some point it’s necessary to honest.
Hi Ramses and Matt ,
I hate being told "Excellent, well done" and such when I just KNOW I'm sucking at something because how is that helpful to improve? Apparently so does the girl herself since she "wants to know that her reading(recitation) is understandable or not." She wants to honestly know what she sounds like to English speakers, not patronized with "Great job for a first time", etc. I think she'd like this post if she saw it, and she might even buy Matt's course!
)
“you start attempting to humiliate 14 year old girls who speak a language for the first time to desperately prove a point! It’s shameful how far you are bringing this Ramses!”
Disregarding the input-output debate, I’m definitely with you on this–politely and constructively criticizing is fine, insulting and mocking a 14 year old girl who’s trying her hand at a English for the first time? Jesus, man…No, you shouldn’t have done that.
Dude, where am I insulting that girl? Where am I mocking her? Jeez…. I'm mocking her teachers rather, as I think everyone deserves to receive a good language education, not the crap most try to shove down our throats.
My goal with this blog is to prove a point, and what I see around the blogosphere is that most are rather polite than honest. You can say about (for example) Randy of Yearlyglot what you like, but at least he's honest and not a phoney.
I think Benny is missing the point of the argument. We are not talking about motivation, but the disadvantage of producing output too early. This video has been used as an example to support the theory.
I think this video is really not much about the girl, but the guy behind it.
If I remember correctly when this post first came up about 2 years ago, the guy admitted he was not a language teacher, but a computer programmer. He basically used some 'parroting' approach, asking the girl to listen to repeat to the clip many times. He then posted around the Internet asking people for comments. He sounded like he had produced great result. But apparently, he did not know how badly the girl spoke.
As for motivation, I would still encourage the girl, but to listen to a lot of English first before trying to speak it.
Wow, your memory is better than mine
. What you say is true, but still proves the same point: she was "forced" to speak without getting sufficient input, with as a result a messed up accent.
Hi Ramses / Matt,
I really enjoy your content, and I'd really like to test out the input first method. You're never sure until you try it yourself.
I started with output first and I never had to fix my accent. I speak with a perfect Mandarin accent, make fewer grammar mistakes than most Natives do, and very rarely hesitate, and I've been like this even before I came to China. I learned for a year in the US in school which was a big mistake, but not for accent or grammar reasons. I came to China and was forced into the advanced class because my speaking skills were so good. Why were they so good? I was the guy least afraid to speak in and outside of class. I didn't watch Chinese movies at home, didn't listen to any Chinese podcasts, and didn't speak much Chinese outside of class.
With that said, I'll agree that it's possible that focusing on input first may have had other advantages, but then again anything is better than school and textbooks.
This is just my experience though, so I could be just an anomaly. Most of my friends that had the exact same classes I had came out with a roadkill accent so bad that even "may I have a beer" was incomprehensible.
Very interesting debate.
Great article, and evidently a hot topic for some. I really like the 800 hours of input verses 'when ready' concept, because like stated many would never be ready. In addition, IMHO, anything related to grammar rules, explanations, etc., should NOT be attempted until after (or at least towards the end) of the input hours. As one that had all the grammar shoved down my throat at the very beginning, and struggled to sort it all out later, I am convinced that had the grammar been introduced AFTER I was more comfortable with the language (sounds, vocabulary, structure), I would have understood the grammar much quicker.
Side note: I also believe that there are no 'totally' correct or incorrect methods of learning, since language learning is very individualized. This being said, what I take from here (and other language learning blogs) is what has worked/not worked for the person writing the blog. It is then up to me to use this information, or to disregard it if I don't feel it would benefit me. And, even if I don't use the particular method, it often will trigger me into something else that does work for me. Okay, I am rambling now but you, I hope, get the idea.
David
Hola Ramses, soy ingles y llevo varios años estudiando español con el metodo que Matt usa para aprender frances. (o sea, ver la tele. jaja) Casi nunca leo, siiiii necesito empezar lo se lo se, pero es que soy muy vago…
Hablo español casi sin acento y entiendo casi todo lo que escucho.
LO MAS QUE ESCUCHO, LO MAS CLARO ME PARECEN LOS SONIDOS DEL IDIOMA, ENTONCES LO MEJOR QUE LO PRONUNCIO.
Bueno, seguro que cometo muchos errores, hablo como un niño de cinco años (necesito mas adquisicion), pero bueno, es posible aprender un idioma asi. Es super importante que se preste mucha atencion a las estructuras y los sonidos. Hay que aprender de una forma pasiva, pero activa, si me entiendes…. jaja Y pues, nada! Es asi de facil!
Escribi todo esto sin usar un diccionario o un libro de gramatica.
Espero que tenga sentido. jaja
P.D. Me gustaria hablar en español contigo… si estas libre un dia…
hmmm "el metodo que usa Matt" me suena mejor
Tu español es perfecto, buen trabajo (soy nativo)
I agree that one should never discourage someone from speaking a foreign language. I only wanted to comment and ask if anyone here has looked into the TPR (Total Physical Response) method that is used in many language immersion settings. The idea of the program is to teach a foreign language just like one learns their native language and that is by speaking the language. TPR is used in almost all the immersion programs in the US. The target language is spoken from day one to speakers of another language that have never been exposed to the target language before. All children go through a silent period for an extended period of time. This means they do not produce the language at any time for about 6 months to 1 year. There have been accounts that native English speakers who are in a Chinese immersion program may be "silent" for the first semester of school and then return to school after Christmas producing semi-fluent phrases. Think about how we learn our first language. We make sounds and can coo and all that, but we really are quite silent for the first year of our lives. In a TPR situation, it is good to encourage students to use the target language whenever they are able to (like asking to go to the bathroom). It is important to give this support but for some people it is important for them to go through a period of learning how to produce the sounds. Think of all the songs you thought you knew the lyrics too and found out years later that you had always been reciting them incorrectly. Language is a bit like this, not everyone is able to intuitively change their pronunciation of sounds after producing them a certain way for a very long time. This takes time and a lot of input.
I've done research to TPR, TPRS and ALG. In my opinion, TPRS and ALG are the most effective. Why? Well, first of all research shows people are more engaged in TPRS and ALG classes. The reason for this could be that TPR is so very scripted, and that you're just doing a fixed set of actions the teacher tells you to do.
Now, there is some room for improvisation in TPR, but I prefer TPRS much more because of the storytelling aspect. From my own experiences as a child I know stories tend to stick a lot better. If you combine this with TPR you've got yourself a good mix.
ALG is for people who like to sit down a lot and simply listen. Now, this isn't for everyone and I can imagine that especially children don't want to sit down, so in that case I'd go for TPRS.
People, I enjoyed the debate so far and I like rough language and people speaking out what they think. I'm not going to censor anyone or any comment, but try to think that bashing people is easy and later you could regret what you've said. I already got one request from a commenter to take his comment down, so that shows I have to warn some of you.
Please continue the discussion, I think some comments aren't as useful (but are at least entertaining), while I also see some good takes on the subject with people's own experiences. Keep them coming!
And for you information: it was never my goal to insult anyone, not even that girl in the video, and I don't think I did. If some people are so sensitive about getting honest (and I mean HONEST) feedback, they shouldn't learn a language to start with. I got far more honest feedback than I give in this post, some of my friends even laughed at me and insulted me. I didn't stop being their friend, and when I cooled down I started to think and realized they were right. Without their honest feedback I would've never learned Spanish and English well, so remember that honest feedback is essential, even if it hurts.
You did not insult anyone! Unfortunately, many do not know 'debate' verses 'constructive criticism' verses 'cynicism', with cynicism being too often the method of choice. As for 'honest feedback' you are right on, and honest feedback is NOT insulting either. I would much rather someone tell me what I am doing wrong and show/teach me how to correct my mistakes than let me continue making them. Feedback (honest feedback) is only an insult when it is given as an opinion without the tools to correct/help the person receiving the feedback, and sometimes the tools can be as simple as making the person aware of his/her mistakes. Other times, more help is needed and that responsibility IMHO falls on the person giving the feedback.
Fair enough. But there's definitely a difference between feedback and criticism (to the point of ridicule).
And I've seen both WRT the video. Criticism for the sake of criticizing doesn't do anyone any good. Feedback that actually offers helpful suggestions is what people should be doing. Unfortunately, I don't think telling her to not speak anymore because she's not doing a good enough job is good feedback – she's already speaking. The genie's out of the bottle, and probably not going back in.
If anybody deserves criticism, it's the teacher for posting the video. I can't see anything positive from a teacher singling out a lone student and then posting their video, a first attempt, no less.
I don't care what she might think, I wasn't giving her feedback. The sole purpose of posting this video here is to make a point. That people don't want to see that is their problem, not mine.
I didn't insult anyone, and people are just yelling other things so that they can ignore what I said in the post: speaking early is BAD!
@Ramses – not sure how to take your latest post. If my comment was what angered you, I extend my apologies. I was (and still am) in agreement with this article and with your methods. My comment regarding feedback was not intended to infer that you had given feedback, insulted anyone or anything else negative. I realized from the very first time I read the article that the use of the video was only to make a point, 'speaking early is BAD!' I have never known you before to react in an unprofessional manner and, therefore, again extend my apologies if my comments were the cause of you last posting.
You didn't anger me, and my comment wasn't directed at you
.
Ramses,
DO NOT get in Benny's way (or his website from which he makes ca$h selling his hackery), my friend, even though anyone who has heard his spanish, which is supposedly one of his better languages, knows his accent is pretty bad. For those of us who actually work with spanish speakers, we're past the whole "walk into a bar and pick up some euro chicks because you've studied some lame-ass phrasebook" method…er, I mean output method. Sorry for being so direct, Ramses. I just hope his website drives as much traffic to yours as yours does to his because your website is da bomb. Keep on truckin', brother.
We take sides on a debate but it doesn't mean we have to twist the facts for winning it. If you dig into Benny's Spanish speeches, (other than the reheasaled performance on Youtube), it's not fair to deny the fact that he's nailed the Spanish accent. To go a little further, I think I envy his accent in Spanish as a peer second langauge leaner.
If you want to talk about his Spanish accent… I'm not sure if I want to get involved in that discussion because it can get ugly (after seeing what has been said before in this debate). All I know is that his accent seems to change with each video. He says he has a Castillian accent, more I've seen more than one video where he has more or less an Argentine accent, which he didn't master.
But that isn't very important. He speaks Spanish, fine. I'm not going to bash anyone, only if someone claims he or she has a native accent and clearly doesn't, then you can hear me whine. Otherwise I'm not going to burn someone down.
I don't understand why every discussion on language learning can be so easily mislead to the weird debate on perfectionism. I never said Benny had a native accent (not knowing whether he claimed himself having one or not). Only hearing someone say that "his accent is pretty bad" seems just unfair. Not to mention some of the spontaneous interviews of Benny demonstrate he has a correct and pleasant pronunciation (if not even close to native according to Ramses), even if he just read the lines out loud for making the youtube video, his pronunciation in Spanish is fine for a second language learner. He doesn't deserve that critic only because someone intended to attack his point of view on language learning.
Well, so far I can see he claims that there's not one "perfect method". I agree. He also says that his method is a good as the "input first" method. I disagree.
The main goal of any immersion method is to reach a native-like level, and that includes pronunciation. So why claim different methods work perfectly for different people, when with one method people will most likely never reach a native-like level?
Don't make claims not even you can fulfill.
I remember reading one of James Asher's first studies as he was developing his Total Physical Response (TPR) ideas. In it he suggested students (this was for the school setting, not the expat setting) spend the FIRST semester listening only. I think part of the confusion in the all of this discussion arises when we don't distinguish between the in the classroom at home learner and the "I just moved to the country and have to talk to eat" learner. This different situations require different approaches in some respects – or at least allow for longer listening at the beginning. In some ways the arguments for and against input first are skewed here because of this. Benny is moving to a country and has not choice but to talk. That is the experience from which he writes for the most part. He is also an adult learner who is very aware of how to go about learning another language – which he does quite well. The student in the video is just that – a student. She is dependent on her teacher because she knows no better. Her motivation is probably getting an A in class.
Anyway, all that as a little food for thought.
Ok. Yo si se este los entradas de este blog son muy viejos, pero, tengo una pregunta: Tengo un acento espanol casi mal. Entonces, en que manera puedo mejorar o fijar mi acento despues aprender o adquirir un acento mal?
Ok. I know that these blog entries are very old, but, I have a question; I have a Spanish accent that is somewhat bad. How can I improve or fix my accent learning or acquiring a bad accent?
Woah woah, hold your potatoes buddy. I think we got off on the wrong foot here. I like you. In fact, I like you a lot, so I'll tell you what: If you buy my FLUENT IN 2 SECONDS PROGRAM, then I'll buy your FLUENT IN THREE MONTHS Sham-Wow and knife set or whatever, and that way we can both win, right?
If we sell each other enough snake oil, well heck, I can see us becoming good friends
Thanks for reminding me of an important lesson "Don't feed the trolls". I haven't gotten into an Internet argument with a child who feels so proud that he can use a keyboard and enter comments somewhere to annoy people since early this year. It's important to remember that such circular arguments will inevitably last forever, so next time I'll have to remember to dismiss childishness without even acknowledging it.
So thanks for the reminder! Now go, good troll – your caps lock is needed in so many places online!
No no I'm super-super-serious!! Have your operators standing by, because this forum is ready to buy the hell out of your products!
I know I said I'm buying two, but now I'm buying three. I wish I could quit you
Mistakes are fine when you are learning, and if someone said "soy" in their first months I wouldn't bat an eyelid. But claiming to be an amazing linguist and making such a dreadfully basic mistake is quite incredible.
I was in Hungary for 2 months, not 3, and in Berlin I reached my exam related goals precisely as I had defined them and decided not to pursue the accent goals at all. People reading my blog would know that. People who ignorantly jump to conclusions from my domain name and watch the end video would not know that of course. My domain name is about objectives, not promises: http://www.fluentin3months.com/fi3m-faq/
Of course you're right about what comes in is what comes out. I learn the phrases and then use them immediately. Engineering systems process data or resources immediately and don't store them up for years and then crap them out when it's "ready". All my output comes from input – there is no magic involved, there's only a much more efficient use of that input.
The man is a jerk you know and that's a well documented fact on the LL blogs. Even if he speaks 100 languages that's not going to make him less jerk. I totally disagree with Benny, OK, but that's not a reason to start their (his and SK) "debate" all over again on this blog too.
If you insist then I would say that I read and understand: English, Italian, Spanish, Russian, German, French, Slovenian and Serbian and speak 3 or 4 of them. But I'm not an entrepreneur who is trying to sell you "Lingqs" (wtf), so I got no reason to waste my time doing videos of me reciting from memory few lines in 10 languages. I find this kind of blogs like Ramses has a lot more useful for language learners than pompous guys like SK and maybe Benny.
Bye and "kill your idol". He sucks.
For the record, my comment wasn't meant to anger your either. Nor was I accusing you of insulting anyone or anything else for that matter,
Rames, I think you're misreading my message and I have the urge to show my stand.
I don't agree with Benny's "speak as soon as possible" approach. On contrary, I support the input (listening) first approach and am practising it. However, this is not the reason for me to deny the fact that Benny has reached his fluency in Spanish (listen to his radio interview, if a guy who talks like that is not fluent, I seriously doubt what fluency means. BTW, I don't care what accent he was using, but his pronunciation was spot on.) I don't know how he achieved it, how long it took him to do it, or whether he really applied the method he is preaching, but the guy does speak Spanish really well. Irresponsibly claiming his accent "pretty bad" simply won't make our stand stronger.
Fair enough. And maybe I didn't express myself correctly. I didn't want to say his Spanish his bad, because I don't think it is. On the other hand, you should ask yourself what your goal is, and if one method is a good way to reach that goal.
For me, most of Benny's method isn't the best way to reach the goal of native-like fluency. He is fluency, yes, but I'm talking about more than just fluency. People can be fluent and make many mistakes. Officially, if you speak with ease with minor mistakes, you're fluent. Also, how much time does one need to reach fluency? That’s also something you have to think about.
But I'm not just talking about reaching fluency. I'm talking about becoming the best, while having fun and not spending truckloads of money.
Anyway, I'm a bit over this discussion, as we don't seem to get anywhere. In the meanwhile more and more language bloggers are selling stuff and aren't being honest to their readers. And that sucks.
I’ll just stick to blogging about my experiences, without worrying too much about what others might think. It’s not worth the energy, and it’s a time waster.
Maybe it's going off the topic, but i'd like to say a bit more.
I know exactly what my goal is. I'm not sure whether I can be the best, because there will always be some words I don't know, some structures I never used. And compared to native speakers, I may always fall a little behind (that natual dose especially for natives.) However, I do know my English has reached a level where I don't hesitate for not knowing the words I should use, but as soon as my thought comes up, my sentences are already there. I'm amazed how that process are similar to the one in which I speak my native lanaguge. It took me more than 10 years to come to this point in English. And I think I can do it again with my French with less time and better learning management. Therefore, I'll keep getting input until I'm ready to speak (Yes, I do believe there's a point where I'll be ready to speak.)
Good posts for the blog and I'll keep reading it for motivation!