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After reading John’s (of the Foreign Language Mastery blog) post on input versus output, I was inclined to write a reaction myself for the debate. I actually had to, as most people think I’m an “output hater”, someone who tells everyone to shut up and never speak their target language. Luckily, that’s not true.
It’s true that I think it’s essential for everyone serious about learning a foreign language well, with little or no accent, to have a silent period. In that period one only takes in the foreign language, let it be by watching television or listening to podcasts; the most important thing is to take in and not even think about speaking the language.
Still, that doesn’t mean I hate output, or that I think it’s not necessary. I mean, speaking the language is the goal, right? So why would I oppose output? That makes no sense at all, and people who say I hate output clearly have never really read my blog, or the posts I wrote on the subject.
When I look at myself I see someone who started speaking Spanish right away. That was a big mistake, mainly because after a year of learning my grammar was bad and my pronunciation couldn’t possibly be worse. I thought I had ruined everything, that I would live a life of mediocrity. Boy, how wrong was I.
I decided to shut up for at least 6 weeks (during my summer vacation), after which I’d see if my pronunciation had actually improved and if a longer silent period was necessary.
After those 6 weeks I went back to college and amazed my native-speaker classmates. They agreed my pronunciation wasn’t perfect yet, but I had improved a lot. How was that possible? I thought about it and could only come to one conclusion: I finally knew -more or less- how to sound. I no longer relied on the Dutch sounds, but was producing sounds that actually sounded a bit Spanish. That included the rolled R, something I had trouble with for a long time.
So I extended my silent period, only speaking when someone asked me in class. Except for those two or three sentences I wouldn’t say a single word in Spanish and simply listen. And it worked, it worked like a charm.
When I finally moved to Spain in my second year of college, my Spanish wasn’t perfect yet, but I was able to speak with confidence. Yes, I was speaking Spanish on a regular basis at that time, full time. People would still notice I wasn’t a Spaniard, but they would compliment me on trying really hard to sound like one. My friends also noticed a change taking place over the months, to the point that I sounded exactly like them.
So now you want to know my take on the input versus output debate? Well, if you really want to have a good accent and don’t want to translate everything in your head before you’re about to speak, you certainly need a long silent period. Think of six months to a year before you’re even going to try to speak Spanish. After that it’s up to you to look for opportunities to practice your Spanish.
Remember: after the silent period your Spanish won’t be perfect. You will make mistakes, your pronunciation will be flawed. But at least you know, and you also know what to sound like. Because of the silent period you can pin down your own mistakes and work on them, improving over time.
To finally get a native Spanish accent it’s important to imitate your native-speaking friends. I know it’s not easy, but it’s certainly doable.
Understanding Spanish: How to Make the Transition from Input To Output
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>>Think of six months to a year before you’re even going to try to speak Spanish.
Doesn't it matter how much you actually understand after those six months?
Anyways, I realised that only input idea was bunk anyway since I've been able to comprehend Hindi 100% all these years though my speaking still sucks arse =(
I guess your comprehension rate doesn't matter as much as you'd think.
That's why I'm all for a mix of the two. Input can only bring you so far, your ultimate goal is communication so you should start speaking at some point, even though your suck at first.
Actually, after the input period you should speak ALL THE TIME (and still take in, but not as much as before as you'll be speaking a lot).
Well, I'm inclined to tell people to that they need to do a little bit of groundwork and learn some basic vocab, grammar, and pronunciation prior to practicing speaking, but I'm still with Benny on this in that I think you should start speaking as soon as possible. The real key is to listen to native speakers and then repeat after them, trying to match what they said as closely as possible, and keep doing it until you're able to perfectly replicate what they said in the exact same way that they said it.
I started speaking immediately when I first started learning Spanish, but it was alone and to myself while I did Pimsleur and some other similar programs where you repeated after the native speaker, and I think that did enormous good for my pronunciation and accent, so perhaps it's important that you do something like that for a bit before actually talking with another person? I don't know, but I do know that that listen-and-replicate thing did work wonderfully for me.
Cheers,
Andrew
Andrew, I was like that and it ruined my accent. I started speaking right away, while I had natives around me all day long. Did they correct me? Sure. Did they correct me all the time? No way in hell they didn't… So I spoke with a poor accent, and thought my accent was good because people stopped correcting me.
I'm still a strong believer of the input hypothesis, because I've seen it in action many times, and it beats the crap out of the "speak as soon as you can"-method. People who spend a considerable amount listening and taking time to absorb the correct sounds will often do much better than people who start speaking right away.
Don't get me wrong, I believe that practice should be the biggest part of your learning experience, but start like kids start: listen. Of course you can imitate people on television after a while, but don't start with it, just absorb. In the end this will leave you with a better accent and less cleaning up to do.
First, I want to make it clear that one my rules I have that overrides nearly everything else is: if it works for you, use it. To hell with what anyone else says or what works for them. Something I’ve learned from being involved in the language-learning community is how unbelievably opposite two people’s learning strategies can be and yet they BOTH achieve really impressive results–the two that really come to mind as COMPLETE opposites in learning style who also speak over a dozen languages are Benny and Iversen (on the HTLAL forums, I presume you get on there). I know you know about Benny, but if you’re not familiar with Iversen, have a look at this, his learning style is much more in accordance with yours: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16932&PN=1
I would never be so arrogant as to disparage someone’s method as long as it gets results: if it works, use it.
That said, something I want to point out is that I was very careful above to tell you that I developed an excellent accent in Spanish NOT by speaking with native speakers (I didn’t do that until about 2 years after I started learning Spanish) but by listening very closely to perfectly pronounced Spanish (via Pimsleur, LSLC, and Platiquemos, and later various Spanish-language media like music videos and movies) and repeating after them. If you’re familiar with these programs you know that they have a native speaker say a single sentence or two clearly at a normal conversational rate of speed, then they stop and go back and break it down into short parts of speech that you repeat out loud until you’ve got it down pat, then you say the whole phrase several times until you’ve got IT down pat, and then you move onto the next sentence–it’s very slow and meticulous, quite the opposite of blathering on at full speed with natives with no breaks or repeats.
Cheers,
Andrew
Andrew, you're right. If there's one thing that I've learned this year is that there are other methods that work perfectly for many other people. I also know people that used another method than I did, and became fluent in the respective languages as well.
Having said that, I do know programs like Pimsleur, Platiquemos, FSI, LSLC, etc. And I don't like them. Why? Well, because most lessons are boring, don't contain real language, or at least contain language that's outdated. And what if you're aiming for a Castilian accent? Then you're pretty much screwed because almost every program uses "neutral" Latin American pronunciation and "neutral structures". There's no such thing as neutral language!
Why I think the method I promote is so powerful is because it enables people to go about learning Spanish while doing things they normally do. Watching television, listening to the radio, reading books are all parts of our daily routine. By simply replacing one's native language by Spanish you can both have fun and learn a new language at the same time.
Over time I've discovered that it doesn't really matter what method you use, as long as you use native materials at some point and have fun. Seriously, not having fun causes many people to stop learning their target language, and that's quite a bummer. By avoiding boring things like courses or frustrating things like speaking before you feel comfortable, you're more likely to succeed because you don't feel the urge to do something you like; you're already doing something you like!
Hi,
I had to practise speaking a lot recently for the oral part of my exams. However, now it's all over I've gone back into the silence which I was enjoying so much.
Not living in a Spanish speaking country, I'm not in any hurry to speak but I'm curious to know; how do you know when you've outgrown the silent period, and how long after that does take to feel really comfortable with speaking? There's other advice out there which I'm sure you've seen yourself, that basically says if you stay in the silent period for long enough, you won't suck all that badly when you start speaking; you'll actually be pretty good at it right away.
You will be pretty good, but from my own experience I know it's also possible that your pronunciation won't be perfect yet. That doesn't matter, but you shouldn't be discouraged because your pronunciation isn't perfect yet, as it's something that gets better with practice and more listening.
Generally the "rule" is to start speaking when you feel like it, but I know some people who never get to speak because they say "they don't feel like it". That isn't smart of course, so I'd opt for practicing after about 800-1000 hours of input while still getting a steady stream of input (especially if you like it).
I'm curious: How many hours of spoken Spanish input all of you needed before you started to understand spoken Spanish as well as your native language?
I have about 85 hours of solid listening so far. On rare occasions, I can directly and immediately understand something said in Spanish, if the person is speaking slowly enough and uses only words I know. But Spanish is still 'foreign' for me and there is almost always a little delay between hearing something and catching the meaning. Or I may need to mentally replay what they said a couple times before the meaning becomes clear.
Does a second (3rd etc.) language ever gain the direct immediate and instant understanding effect that one's native language has?
I'm not going to read any more books — even though reading is much easier than listening — until I get another 200 hours of spoken input. I want my pronounciation to be good enough so that I am confident that I am not mentally rehearsing incorrect pronounciation when reading.