About a week ago a reader named Mark sent me the following e-mail about how the heck he’s even able to learn grammar just from sentences:
I’ve been following your blog for quite some time now and decided to try and give this Spanish thing a try.
I already learned Mandarin to near fluency using the immersion method and wanted to see if it would also work for Spanish. I started out studying Mandarin in college for a year and a half through classes but only started seeing real progress once I immersed myself in the language. By then, I already had a solid foundation in grammar and it was easy to pick up new sentences.
With Spanish, I took a few courses in high school but don’t remember any grammar and hardly any vocabulary. I know how to pronounce Spanish and that’s about it. I bought Learning Spanish Like Crazy Light version and borrowed some children’s spanish books from my library. I also have the “Easy Spanish Phrase Book” along with “1001 Most Useful Phrases in Spanish” books.
Problem is, I really don’t know where to go from here. When I open these books and see these long sentences, I wonder how I can try and understand them. You say I shouldn’t try and learn grammar, but if I don’t learn at least SOME basic grammar, how can I put these sentences into Anki and understand what they mean? I don’t understand any of the sentences in the phrasebook and don’t know what I should do.
What do you suggest I do? I have tons of Spanish podcasts that I listen to, but I still can’t understand anything. It’s very discouraging. Mandarin has very little “grammar” and no tenses, unlike Spanish, so it was easy to just pick apart different sentences. As a complete beginner, I don’t know what the logical next step is in my learning Spanish.
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Normally I’d just advise to pick up a reference grammar (the type without any exercises), read the grammar point (but not to memorise them) and add the sentences to your favorite SRS program. Now, this is completely fine and all, but I think there’s an easier way to do this, with less worrying about grammar.
I started learning Spanish in college and it wasn’t after I learned everything about Spanish grammar that I started building my immersion environment. In other words: I never applied this format to my SRS cards, but now that I’ve done a lot of research to how the ideal flashcard should look like, I came up with this format. This is what I told Mark to do:
Lets say you have this Spanish sentence:
“No quiero verte.”
To begin, I’d translate the sentence literally, like this:
Not want [I] see-you.
Of course, this sentence is really short, but you should start out with short sentences anyway.
Then, you write down the correct English translation:
I don’t want to see you.
This results in the following SRS item:
——–
F R O N T
No quiero verte.B A C K
Not want [I] see-you.I don’t want to see you.
Notes:
“No” always comes before the verb.
“Quiero” is the first person singular (present) of “querer”.
“Ver” means “to see” (verb)
“Te” refers to “you”.——–
Now you have an item that explains you everything. You’ll notice that after a bunch of cards and many hours of input later, you don’t need all those notes anymore and that it’s enough to put Spanish-> English sentence items and later on Spanish sentence -> Spanish definition of unknown words items.
Adding these notes is even doable for a complete beginner. But to avoid mistakes I’d still pick up that reference grammar, put the Spanish sentence on the front of the card, and simply take over the notes from the grammar book. This will be your only time you actually “study”, although not in a formal way; the rest of the time is reserved to get some massive input.
As you can see it’s totally possible to learn a language from scratch without ever formally study grammar.
Still, even though Spanish has a freaky grammar at times (compared to some other languages), that doesn’t mean it’s impossible to learn it from just getting input. I mean, if you can learn words from context like Mark did with Mandarin, why wouldn’t you be able to learn grammar from context? It’s just another part of the language, it isn’t more difficult. So just pumping in the Spanish into your head, even though you won’t understand a thing, helps. I know it sounds weird, but it has been proven by several linguists, and you just need to experience it to believe it can.
Use your SRS to get a bit of a feeling for the language and to explain some things to yourself, but just get that Spanish input going and you’ll see it goes automatically.
Good luck learning, mate!
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Great post. I am always trying to figure out the best format for my SRS cards and this looks great. Since I am just now starting to learn Italian and Swedish I will use this method, thanks!
What you are in fact doing, is the BIRKENBIHL method (“invented” or better published by a German lady and language learning expert and management trainer Vera F. Birkenbihl
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vera_Felicitas_Birkenbihl ).
See here for more details:
http://www.birkenbihl-insider.de/PDF/MethodEnglish.pdf
It’s very likely that this approach isn’t unique. In fact, I learned this from Khatzumoto (from AJATT.com). But so far I understand it, the Burkenbihl method also puts emphasis on speaking pretty much in the beginning? That’s not something I endorse.
Well, the very best method is to use TPR to learn in the begining and then go on to what is called TPRS.
Unless you are able to go to DLI or FSI you will not be given the meaning of certain constructions. As Pierre Capretz said, “French is not English with different words.” The same applies to this attempted overlay of yoru L 1 on to the L 2. English monolinguals have one hell of a hard time grasping the Subjunctive Mood. Si yo fuera rico, tendria mas coches. That is so ahrd for an English only speaker to understand that they struggle and struggle.
You’ve got to give up trying to use your L 1 and accept.
Best regards in learning,
Christophe Clugston
I agree, in a classroom situation TPRS is the way to go (although ALG is pretty cool as well). Still, personally I prefer learning languages on my own. So combining input with an SRS (and this item layout) can be really effective.
Do you have a blog or something? I’m really interested in your ideas.
I do not understand the obsession with the subjunctive. At first it does not matter, and for a long time it does not matter. You can communicate and read and listen without really mastering it. Then one day you will catch yourself using phrases in the subjunctive. Then you might read about the subjunctive in a grammar book and understand why you are using it or hearing it. Then you might get used to using it more often. Other than for exams in the language, I do not see it as a big problem.
I also do not like TPR because it is a teacher centred learning process.
But everyone has their own approach. I could not write sentences or translations down on cards. Nor do I like to spend my time on SRS systems. I like content, meaningful content, at first short and gradually longer and longer in duration. I like listening and reading.
I also like this blog Ramses, my first visit. I will be back.
I have to agree with you as well, Steve. I learned the subjunctive mood through input, not even through SRS. In fact, I only used Spanish -> Dutch cards in the past, without the notes and direct translations. So I do think you can learn a learning using other methods, but I think adding an SRS to the mix could speed up the process.
Thanks for visiting and thank you for the compliment!
Well,I hate to burst the hackneyed pundit take on things but the most researched and proven method of learning is through TPR (no going from L 2 to L 1 either).If you disagree please give counter studies and proof and not your freelings. L 2 learning is a science, ergo that’s why some of us have degrees in it.
If you did not understand what I wrote in Spanish and did not understand why, then you do not understand Spanish that well. As for functioning level, I think you (the collective) are equating a level 1 on the FSI and DLI scale as quite remarkable–it is not.
If you want to murder the language and overlay your L 1 on the L 2 then you can get by as a tourist. You will not, however, be having discussions about Sarte and Neitzsche in Spanish. In fact, you will be incapable of that. That is what level 4 is all about,
ALG is interesting but it is very slow. There is an accelerated method that using Lozanov, TPR and Silent Way–but the costs are usually quite high for this level of instruction and very rare to find. There are some locations for Spanish instruction and Thai instruction in this method (it is by far the strongest method). And I can also say if you can handle it, and can qualify for it, the overlearning method used at DLI and FSI is very strong.
FSI is nothing more than drilling grammar. TPR works in a similar way, but omits L1. The problem with both is that it’s just boring as hell. TPRS is more fun, I think.
Having said that, I don’t think the most effective way to learn is going to a class. Let it be FSI, let it be TPR(S), there’s no substitute for raw input and doing as much in your target language as you can. Having a self-made immersion environment is priceless, and no class or system can beat that.
Eventually, being bored in class will just get you to stop learning that language. By doing things you like at home you’ll just want to grow more.
Christophe,
I accept that you have a degree in “L2 acquisition” and think that it is a science. I said I do not like TPR. I do like sitting in a class room and having a teacher make me do things. I just like listening and reading. I did not say that others should not do TPR if they like it.
I am quite familiar with the subjunctive in 5 languages, but do not think this needs to be a major point of emphasis the way you make it out to be. We can get it wrong for a long time and still communicate. And that, for most people, is the ultimate goal. My wife is from Hong Kong, and speaks more and better French than most Canadians who have spent years studying the subjunctive.
I have no knowledge of nor interest in DLI or FSI levels.
I would prefer that you no make assumptions about things that you have no way of knowing, like what I am capable of discussing in Spanish or any other language.
I am hoping this blog is a place for people interested in languages and language learning, and not a place for degree holders in the “science of L2 acquisition” to try to put other people down when they describe their experience in language learning.
I meant to say “do not like sitting in a classroom”.
Well, glad to see the fact that since you put no value on FSI nor DLI levels that it must now mean nothing. And you seem to take “correction” of your wrong ideas as insulting–if you have counter studies to disprove anything that I have said, please show them.
Or is it that you want non educated people babling about their ideas about learning instead of solid research?
In French the subjunctive is not as important as in Spanish and there are ways to construct without using it: Il me faut aller a Paris ce soir, is just one example. In English, people dont’ know what the hell the subjunctive is. Italian doesn’t use it very much. However, ignorance of it doesn’t mean it is not important in Spanish.
Please tell me how long you have lived in Hispanhablante environment. If you do not use the subjucntive corre clty in Spain you wll not be understood (you wlil be understood but your attempted translaltion–which is where your frame of learning is coming from–will be wrong).
Ramses, FSI and DLI are far more than what people who look at the old texts that were just PART of the teaching can possibly fathom. Unless you’ve gone to DLI or FSI your frame of reference is not even in the same ball park, as they say.
Chris, I don’t really believe there’s a single part of the grammar that’s more important than the other. Your focus on the subjunctive mood just amazes me. Why do you think it’s so important?
I agree, when your language learning revolves around studying grammar and going to class, the subjuntivo can really make your life a living hell. On the other hand, when you just take in with the immersion method and don’t worry about the rules until you’re fluent, there’s no such thing as thinking about the subjunctive. You just use it then.
I learned all the possible verb combinations when I started Spanish in college. It didn’t help me. It wasn’t until I started taking in Spanish like crazy I began to understand the language. Not in a theoritical way, but in a practical way. Now I just use the subjunctive, and don’t even think about it.
You should read the papers of Krashen, they really clear things up (although I assume you’re familiar with his writings).
I’m confused… Si yo fuera rico, tendria mas coches: fuera is were and tendría is I would. What’s so hard about that?
I never remember struggling with the subjunctive in Spanish and am able to use it just fine. But then again, I learned through immersion and only supplemented with grammar study later on, so maybe there’s something to be said for that method then.
There are lots of second language English speakers in the UK, I work with lots of them. They can speak English fine, they are understood and people in the UK to tend to give a lot of leeway when it comes to how people use the language, we more just smile and are happy we’re not having to learn other people’s language.
But….
These people have learnt through immersion, and I’ve found that with a lot of them (not all of course), they read very poorly if at all in English, they don’t write very well. They miss out a lot of words, and tend to say things like, is… rather than it is.
I think there is much more chance of becoming fully fluent (not just speaking) in a language if you put the right amount of effort into the grammar, read lots, better still read lots of Spanish while having the Spanish audio book playing at the same time. Plus, speaking lots, an all round approach.
Reading is the ’secret’, not learning grammar. I’ve always been a lazy bum, and never really read a book in English, because of which my English isn’t as good as it could be. On the other hand, my Spanish is pretty good because I read more in Spanish. The problem of immigrants is that they 1) speak too soon, 2) don’t read enough, and 3) almost never work on their language skills. Grammar isn’t evil, you just need to know its place, which is after getting enough input and understanding the language on a functional level.
I’m pretty sure that English DOES have a subjunctive. “If I WERE rich, I would have more cars.” vs. “When I WAS rich, I had more cars.” We would never say: ‘When I were rich…’ So tell me, what is this use of ‘were’ in the first person singular, if not the subjunctive?
Obviously, English doesn’t utilize its subjunctive as strictly as other languages do (It’s still okay to say “If I was rich, I would have more cars.”, although I would argue that it sounds a little ‘off’), but nonetheless, it still exists.
I am, by no means, a linguist, but I’m pretty sure I’m right about this one. Correct me if I’m wrong.