…and still; I speak Dutch perfectly. No, really. I know more about Spanish grammar (college, ugh) than I know about Dutch and English. Heck, I even know more about the entire Spanish language than I know about Dutch and English together! And still, yet still, I’m able to express myself without mistakes (okay, there are times I mess things up in English, but not that often). How’s that possible?
There’s an ongoing debate in the language blogosphere about memorizing rules/grammar/structures/etc. (take these for example: 1, 2, 3, 4). The worst thing is: they all direct in a way that either promotes learning (read: cramming) grammar, or say it’s not that bad learning grammar (as long as it’s for decoding). Whatever they say: grammar study is BAD and should be avoided. You’ll never talk in a perfect way, nor do most natives. Sure, learning by example is ok, but you simply don’t have time to think about rules when you’re speaking (one of the most important parts of knowing a language, although most language school have forgotten that). And even though it may be nice for decoding, it’ll only bring you pain as you’re over-over-thinking each and every sentence you read and hear (when it comes to listening you shouldn’t think, because the audio keeps going and you’ll getting stuck, still thinking about that phrase 10 seconds ago). Language learning should be relaxing, should be fun. Only then you’ll able to produce in a relaxing, stress-free, way.
Some people really believe that you cannot tell the difference between [lets say] the pretérito indefinido and the imperfecto, unless you’ve read an explicit explanation telling you the difference. They’re simply products of a ruined school-system (language learning-wise at least). It’s really a myth that you should learn grammar in order to use the different tenses correctly. Even people who didn’t have much education can use the tenses, so why wouldn’t we (input-lovin’ bunch of people) get a good understanding of it? Fact check: you may focus on grammar for the moment, but you’re more likely to forget it all, or at least most of it, within a few hours.
Grammar is generally used as a shortcut to knowing a language. The problem, however, is that it focuses on form, not on meaning. You can memorize a bunch of grammar tables, but if you have no idea what they mean and how they’re used (in other words: you didn’t get enough examples through input), you’re lost and won’t understand a thing (and thus forgetting the tables you just learned).
Keith (You gotta love that guy! Read his blog!) put it brilliantly a while ago:
In summary, trying to go fast and forcing a pace that is not natural and that creates bad habits of thinking will only get you so far. That is the ceiling. Going at the natural pace using a natural approach is very complimentary. It relaxes you which allows your brain to work more efficiently. You only use language that you are completely comfortable with. You are not thinking about grammar or wondering if what you say sounds natural. You know it is natural and you know the grammar is correct because you’ve heard it a thousand times. You don’t need to think about words. The words just come to you.
Another nice comment of Steve Kaufman (who has proven that he speaks several language really well):
Most people I know have trouble understanding grammar explanations, with all their exceptions, and they have even more trouble remembering them. This grammar learning, “work”, as Anton calls it, is to most people, an inefficient, boring and discouraging way to learn languages. People who struggled with “transitive and intranstive verbs”, rules on “modals” and all the rest, just improved by leaps and bounds when they came to LingQ to improve their English.
…
Jason, your comments on Mandarin are groundless. I learned Mandarin by listening and reading and focusing on phrases, and ignoring grammar explanation. After 8 months I passed the British Foreign Service Exam in Mandarin.
The key is lots of input, and that means putting in a lot of time. If the method of study is enjoyable we will put in the time needed to progress.And if we learn naturally through a lot of input, we manage to remember what we learn. In fact a number of LingQ members have observed that their language skills improve even when they are away from the language. This is pemanent learning. When we learn grammar rules and tables, we only remember them for a short period of time.
It comes to me that people that keep holding the pro-grammar standpoint are afraid they won’t learn a foreign language. But so far I know, most grammar purists never learned a language to perfection. The anti-grammar folks did, and have proven it.
I can’t remember who said it, but it was said by a wise man once:
The most brilliant Spanish grammars were written by people who didn’t speak Spanish at all.
P.S. This post was for all the people who think I was abused by a grammar-lovin’ nazi when I was 10 years old.
P.P.S. Sorry for not posting a Word of the Day today, but I wanted this post our first and didn’t have time to make another post explaining a word today. I have a pretty rough exam tomorrow, so I’m not sure if I’ll be able to post one tomorrow. Anyway, this blog is about posts like this, so I hope you enjoyed it.
Related Posts:
How to Ignore Grammar
How to Learn a Language From Scratch Without Studying Grammar
Screw grammar
Studying grammar CAN help
New Personal Project: Mandarin
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{ 9 comments… read them below or add one }
I graduated from a linguistics degree a few years ago, and I coming from that perspective I agree with you completely.
I like to think of grammar/syntax as a tool for linguists to deconstruct and describe languages, like taking them apart to see how they work. As Krashen says, you can either learn about a language, or learn a language. Linguists only learn about languages, which is why many of the students and professors I worked with admitted they were “hopeless at learning languages” (even though they seemed to do a pretty good job with English!)
I think learning grammar in order to learn a language is like reading about athletics in order to be a good runner. You can do it all you like, but it’s not going to improve your ability one smidget unless you go out and train your body to do it. Of course, your brain is part of your body, and it’s infinitely more effective and easy to let your brain do the work itself, rather than struggling to get your conscious mind understanding everything. This principle was big in the far East for centuries (think Zen archery or Chinese calligraphy), but unfortunately it looks like modern times have eroded it a bit.
Hey Jack,
Great to see a linguist here on the blog! And great example as well.
Like you said, there are two things of language learning: learning the language itself, and learning about the language. Both can be a hobby, but just choose one and stick with it. You can still get crazy with grammar (like many natives are with their native tongue), but do it as soon as you’re fluent (and the grammar isn’t limiting you from speaking freely).
Again, thanks for the comment and don’t be afraid to come back!
I’m doing my IInd level of Spanish… and while attempting to find some interesting reading online, I chanced upon ure website. Admittedly, very nice!
I agree with u… learning a langauge doesnt come from packing one’s head with words and rules…
However, since the day I started learning the language, my focus has been on cramming the grammar, primarily coz that was the methodology being used in my institute
Since I started reading ure blog ( about a month ago) i’ve been trying to use the ‘inputs methodology’ which you and some others have spoken about in earlier posts. Have been reading a lot… (unfortunately listening has been on the low due to lack of time) … however I find myself constantly translating words in my head. I feel its almost become a habit, and letting go of the grammar obsession is becoming very tough at this stage.
But am on it…
Thanks for this post!
I’m wondering if anyone has used their SRS for memorizing grammar rules or tables.
There often the argument made that grammar rules won’t be remembered if you read and study them, but is that just because we aren’t applying the tools we have for remember stuff to this area of study?
For the record, I find reading grammatical explanations a helpful thing to do *after* I have begun to understand a pattern through exposure to a lot of input.
Yikes, for a native english speaker, my previous post there is pretty ungrammatical.
I blame my typing!
How about splitting your blog into two parts. One for things like word of the day, and the other for posts like these. Personally, I am finding value in both, but having them separated could be helpful. Just a thought. Thanks for your work!
@Ryan:
I know several readers of this blog that have done this, and they all quit either with studying Spanish (bad!) or with memorizing grammar through their SRS. It’s just boring and has no purpose at all.
About the two parts of the blog. That would be a possibility, but I’m not that technical
. Also, I think articles like this really add value. Why? Because this blog is mainly about ‘How to learn’ articles, and the words are just something I do when I have nothing interesting to post.
From Ryan:
“For the record, I find reading grammatical explanations a helpful thing to do *after* I have begun to understand a pattern through exposure to a lot of input.”
I second this. I tried to memorize grammar and it became a pain and bored me to hell at the same time. Now what I do is look for senetences that seem to follow the same patterns and put that into my SRS to study. I might put a grammar rule as a reminder in the answer section, but I mostly ignore those now or don’t even bother to do that anymore.
It’s gotten to point where now instead of thinking “which rule should I use here” it has become “what have I seen used here.”
The one time i’ve found grammar helpful is when i’ve got some super confusing sentence and i really can’t figure out what it actually says. In that case, then i try to find the relevant grammatical explanation, and then i go “ohhhhh, i get it”, and then i go back to my normal pattern of learning (ie, watching hours and hours of german-dubbed star trek, and reading harry potter in german while the german audiobook is playing)