The nature of men is that they’re creatures of habit. If something even slightly works for them, they’ll use it and don’t want to change ever again. A good example are textbooks: they work, but aren’t efficient. Still, the majority refuses to change and look out for other – better – methods. And this counts for other things as well. Want to have something? Buy it! Want to become President and need votes? Buy them! Want love? BUY IT! Eh, wait… Buy love? Oh well, buying worked for other things, so it’ll work the same way with love. Right? Right?
Sorry, I didn’t even start yet and are already going off-topic. Where I want to talk about today, is making mistakes. We all make mistakes; humans are not perfect, far from that. We make mistakes each and every day; at work, at school, in our love-life, etc., etc. We’ve grown intothe believe that mistakes are okay, that they don’t really harm us most of the time. Sure, mistakes are inevitable. Sure, most mistakes don’t really hurt anyone. But sometimes they do!
Take a random company. Before they can release a product, they need to spend truckloads of cash on research, testing and sometimes even releasing the product to realize it won’t be popular. Never. Ever. Still, they learn from their mistakes and move on. A beginning driver? S/he makes quite some mistakes, but luckily there’s an instructor to point out the mistakes so that the person can learn from them. Pro-skaters hurt themselves all the time. But everytime they fall from a 5m high ramp and break their arm or leg, they know how not to do it: they learn from their mistakes.
This way, people think it’s okay to make mistakes when learning a language. “Yea duud! I speek Englis, aight! Becaas of my misteeks, I can speek it beter in the future, yo!“. Righ… WRONG! Here comes the myth-busting: Mistakes won’t learn you a language. EVER!
Now, I could write a 7000-word paper on this issue, but the guys of AntiMoon.com already did that for me (well, not 7000 words, but it’s a clear and pretty detailed article). So read it, think about it and tell me what you think. The comments are abierto.
Read the AntiMoon article here.
Making Mistakes, Does It Hurt?
Language program review: Learning Spanish Like Crazy
Learning a Language Is Like Running a Marathon
The Poor Bastard’s Guide to Language Learning
The Gentlemanly Alpha-Gentleman’s Guide to Language Learning Part II: Pick Your Poison
{ 14 comments… read them below or add one }
I agree with you that making mistakes doesn’t help you learn. But there is a flip-side. I think that a lot of people don’t live up to their learning potential because their fear of making mistakes makes them overthink their speech or otherwise inhibits fluid practice.
That’s why you shouldn’t want to speak as fast as a native. Just think about what you want to say, and then say it. If you’re writing a letter, look up things, think about your phrases. Just don’t rush output.
I actually found that once I stopped being terrified of making mistakes, my learning came a lot more naturally. I learn like a little kid – experimentation, playing, twisting things to see just where their limits are. This applies to everything, and especially language.
I’m not saying that you should be terrified to make mistakes, just try to limit them. I actually prefer to learn more slowly and end up speaking correctly than to make a bunch of errors every phrase but speaking more fluently.
There’s a big difference between being afraid of making mistakes and actually making lots while using the language. It’s very important not to be afraid to speak otherwise you won’t get anywhere. You can learn a lot from mistakes. “Dame un bocadillo de polla.” You’ll never make that mistakes twice!
I agree it’s important to nip bad habits and obvious mistakes in the bud, but if you forgot to use conjugate the 2nd verb in your sentance in the subjunctive, don’t beat yourself up. Can’t remember the 3rd person subj present of “traer”, use the indicative, but tell yourself to learn it afterwards.
These kind of articles take a little bit of an elitist tone. I’d rather somebody spoke bad English than none at all because someone told them how bad mistakes are and took it the wrong way…
Also, natives make plenty of mistakes. Maybe you’d like to tell it to them too.
Natives make plenty of mistakes? Like one, two, three(!) errors per sentences? Well, not really I think. You may find me an elitist, but I’m just writing articles about what I’ve seen in my own process and that of others.
This might be a wake-up call for you, but: this blog is about learning Spanish TO FLUENCY! Bad Spanish isn’t supposed to be there; only fluency is enough. And I’m not saying that people should shut up, but only that they should spoke more slowly, think about what they want to say and therefore avoid mistakes most of the time. How hard is that?
Natives ain’t making no mistakes? There’s bad english in addition to bad engrish.
Ramses I stumbled onto this site and have enjoyed it and your perspective on learning Spanish. However, your posting of this article suprised me — I read one of your later posts that advocates just going out there and, bedamn the grammar, full speed ahead into the language. Yet emphasizing ultra-correct sentences would be the opposite approach where attention to grammar is necessary… ¿que pasa?
I think the 7000 word article went about 5000 words in the wrong direction. There was too much about only writing ultra-correct (an admirable goal, like always using proper manners) and too little identification of how to build good, correct usage in memory and refering to them as much as possible. Immersion (movies, songs, tv, etc) and conversation with native speakers is how you break down those bad language habits, how you build up correct language usage.
Cheers
Natives make mistakes, yes. But not two or three every sentence. You misread this post and the article I linked to. All it’s saying is that you shouldn’t rush speaking. Ignoring grammar doesn’t mean that you won’t speak correctly. All I’m saying is that you shouldn’t produce too soon, and if you produce: don’t try to be a hero and do it full-speed while making a bunch of mistakes that’ll only reinforce the same errors.
You know, most natives won’t correct your mistakes most of the time. If you only try to keep up with their speed you’ll end up speaking bad Spanish, really bad Spanish. So yes, dive into every aspect of the language where you can’t go wrong, but be careful with speaking. Remember all those immigrants in the US and other countries that speak really bad English? They rushed speaking and ended up speaking really bad English. Do you want to sound the same in Spanish?
In the article you’ve linked, they say:
Benefits of speaking
While speaking practice does not develop your vocabulary or grammar, it does offer a few important benefits:
It helps improve your fluency (moves your knowledge of grammar, vocabulary, and pronunciation from your “slow memory” to your “quick memory” — however, first you must put something in your “slow memory” through input).
Does anybody know what they mean with slow and quick memory? I would like to know more about these process/brain’s areas.
Thanks
Yes, it’s actually quite simple. “Slow” memory is all the rough knowledge you have (like vocabulary or knowledge on any other subject). The “quick” memory is what you use when you speak. For example: you don’t think about grammar rules when you speak (these rules are in the slow memory, if you know them), so everything you use (again, vocabulary and the feeling for what’s correct) is in the “quick” part of your brain.
An interesting post Ramses and I actually read this one after reading the Antimoon version. I do however disagree with both of you. Perhaps if fluency is your only goal and you don't mind waiting an inordinate amount of time to achieve it, then the slowly-slowly approach might work. I would say though that I would consider it a rather sterile and boring way to learn a language: Language learning should be fun, and for it to be fun you need to use it. Sitting at home learning grammar rules and vocabulary is enough to send most people running for the hills. I don't believe you should fear mistakes. Sure you should try and reduce them, and definitely learn to correct them when made, but I do not believe that once made they become more difficult to eradicate. If you are a person that is constantly learning and not too proud to realise you are wrong, then consciously recognised holes in grammar and vocabulary can be filled at a later date. Without conversation, however, these holes are rarely found.
I agree that unintelligible output should be avoided wherever possible, but a few mistakes here and there lay good groundwork for becoming a more confident and fluent speaker. After all, children make mistakes all the time and they turn out alright.
As to the reference to immigrants whose English skills remain below par after many years. I would contend that this has nothing to do with making mistakes with native speakers and not being corrected, but more to do with limited contact with native speakers while living in a community of fellow expatriates and primarily speaking their native tongue. I see plenty of immigrants who have integrated fully and speak fluent English, which is certainly comparable to the average native speaker.
Thanks for your time. I did like reading your posts.
Well, I actually say "screw grammar, and have fun instead!" (http://www.spanish-only.com/2009/01/screw-grammar/). The point is, many people rush their output and thus making many, MANY mistakes.
I promote massive input first, laying the groundwork, you can pretty much avoid most mistakes. Actually, I'm currently living in Spain and notice that I still make some silly mistakes now and then and that my vocabulary isn't at a level I want it to be. Still, correcting these mistakes is easier because I'M aware of them, people rarely have to correct me because I use it correctly the second time. Still, this wouldn't have been possible by first avoiding speaking and getting correct input (and thus avoiding making mistakes, which is a good thing).
Ramses. I enjoyed your post on the topic of mistakes. However, I have to disagree. Your ideas on language learning, whereas interesting are unfortunately biased by your personal experience. What have experts, and I mean serious experts, on the fields you are commenting, said about all this? Because I see a lot of uninformed ideas on error analysis, pedagogy, cognitive psychology, sociolinguistics, intercultural studies, not to mention the processes of language acquisition, both first and second. Each person brings his/her own personal background to the language class; however, that does not mean that what works best for you will do the same to someone else. This is something you should discover if you explored research, serious research on the field of language learning. It's not as easy and simplistic as you put it, I'm sorry.
Greetings
Danny, you should read some research of Stephen Krashen.